That is funny. We ran into the same issue a while back. We decide to put all of our bottles on top of the fridge instead of in the freezer. Now we have our own mini-bar up there. Have you ever noticed how cool and artistic bottles of alcohol are? I have a bottle of Jack Daniels Single Barrel that is beautiful.
Well the dilemma part comes in if I choose freezer space for my vodka rather than to preserve food items for my children. Sure I can live on beer and nuts but those little munchkins need a few more nutrients.
Time for another freezer!
Hey there Bowie! we've been collecting our funky bottles, delabelling them and using them as candle holders. Do you freeze all your spirits (I was picturing a mini freezer on top of the existing one) or do you mean that they're all now out of the freezer?
Daniel my dear teetotaler, I am not as sophisticated as I made out earlier. Toby educated me on the vodkas preference for arctic climates. It seems to taste less harsh to me when it is freezy but I have not researched the real reason.
Aha! just found this great pearl -
"The only reason to freeze anything is to reduce the amount of ice you use. Vodka, and most alcohols for that matter, are very stable and you are more likely to screw up the flavor by putting it in the freezer than keeping it out. If you have your vodka around long enough to worry about it degrading you aren't drinking it fast enough :-) " ( Some blogger, Somewhere).
Ok, so the food wins then. Vodka - off to the shelf with you!
Yeah, we just had to accept not freezing our alcohols. We just set them on top of the fridge at regular room temperature. Every bar that I have been to seems to do the same, their bottles just sit on the shelf. We have started collecting the bottles that we are fond of and display them on top of our kitchen cabinets. Isn't talking and learning about alcohol fun?
Toby seems to enjoy the ins and outs of alcohol a little more than me although I do get a kick out of buying alcohol with no guilty feelings. Cocktails grab my attention.
I think I prefer the fun I am having with cursing. I said "god your brave" to someone today and it felt natural and great!
I want to go to the casino soon! what else is there? I need a book of 'thou shalt nots' to refer to.
"Thou shald nots" that makes me laugh! I totally know what you mean though.
I had a friend who, when I told her I was leaving the church, asked me if I tried alcohol and coffee. I said yes, then she asked me, in all seriousness "have you had a threesome yet"? I chuckled because that hadn't even crossed my mind. So there you go, you could have a threesome:)
I love how the next thing after alcohol and coffee is a threesome! Mormons must be even more sexually repressed than I first thought. It's like because there are so many sexual things that are considered sins that sex is probably on the mind more than ever.
So the candidates for the threesome (lets make it a foursome just to be fair ;) are: Johnny Depp, Scarlett Johansen, Leonardo DiCaprio and Penelope Cruz. You guys are in no problem, if your name is something else then there are strict requirements e.g. you must look like one of the four mentioned!!
we should have a girls night out at the casino. I'll show you the ropes :) Also, I must say that the leap from drinking coffee to threesomes was a rather large one. It definitely made me giggle...
This blog is really degenerating fast, but a little compelling, kind of like watching a train wreck.
Half of the comments reminds me of conversions I had in the 10th grade.
I also love how you consider yourself being such a devote follower of the LDS doctrine. I have known you for a long time and I would never have described you or DH as being devote members. You have always been right on the edge if not over on sticking to the teachings of the Church.
So you are misleading everyone here that reads this site on stating that you practiced the religion fully then decided to leave. I would propose that you were just waiting for an opportunity to make an excuse to leave.
Also the black bikini reference is a little confusing, I have seen you many times in little bikini's, not sure where you are getting all the frumpy clothing examples from. You have always dressed in tight small clothes.
Anyway thought I would just try to clear a few things up. Good luck with everything.
I would really like to know how you have come to such conclusions. In particular which teaching/s was I not following? I had a temple recommend right up till the end, I was very active in my church callings, just what exactly are you basing your judgements on?
Your proposal that I was just waiting for an excuse to leave is extremely insulting. You need to re-read the posts on here where I describe the absolute agony I felt when I thought that god did not love me as much as my husband. Then the pain that I have felt in losing god. Then the year+ that I spent trying to find reasons to stay.
When the flip have you seen me wearing a bikini? the top, maybe, maybe (even then a rather conservative one) but I always wore board shorts while I was a member. Little Bikinis - fuck off - I've never owned one.
Small, tight clothes? who the hell are you? I'm beginning to feel creeped out. I look in my wardrobe and see frumpy boring clothing all round. (ps you might want to take a look at the fattys at church with their skin tight clothing, they'd deck you if you said their clothing was innapropriate)
You've made things as clear as mud. Be a man/woman and say these things unanonymously!
I've just had an interesting exchange with a family member over the weekend. He tried the same tactic as Anonymous Coward here: if you leave the Church, it's because you were never really committed in the first place.
By the way, the word is 'devout', dumbass.
I've sometimes wondered why they need to believe this about us. If we change our minds, isn't it enough for them to say we're wrong? Why the character assassination on the way out?
I think the answer is part social control, and part anxiety management.
The 'social control' part is an attempt to discourage other members of the group to leave. By slandering the ex-member, they instill fear in weaker members -- 'this is what we'll say about you if you leave'. Part re-affirming the group's values, part savaging by proxy. It's very subtle and very effective.
The 'anxiety management' part is their own attempt to convince themselves that they would never leave the belief system. Anonymous needs to think we were never believers in order to convince herself that she's safe from becoming like us.
Tell you what, Anonymous. Stay in church. As more and more people wake up, realise that the LDS Church teaches false things and makes empty promises of a fictional hereafter, and as they leave for lives of fulfillment, you can sit in your emptying chapel and congratulate yourself on how you were the only one that 'truly' believed. Won't that be fun?
Anonymous Coward, go sensually please yourself, you might be able to release some of that pent up tension and anxiety; you might also be able to take that massive stick from your colon while you're at it, trust me, you'll feel better.
Maureen's stuck up for herself and the only thing she omitted from her examples of being a good member was the full tithe we payed into the coffers of the church.
As far as I am concerned, yeah for a long while I doubted and disagreed and struggled with the church, and then towards the end I was absolutely looking for a way out (thankfully Maureen took an interest in women's lib. and that led to our blessed departure as a family; beware TBM's the horrors and evils of progressive thought and ideals based on freedom and equity!). And yet I still held callings and did my best in them, for a while I was on the EQP, teaching sunday school to the 14-16 's and the Ward Clerk at the same time. And you question my devotion? FUCK YOU. I had finally had enough and stopped going, Maureen was out as well and we've never felt better.
And if we are living a Train Wreck it's better than living in the squalid gutter-filth of the LDS religion; any religion.
I would just to add a nice fat FUCK OFF to mr/mrs anonymous, cowardly, severely mislead and atrociously misinformed asshole. My sister followed the LDS church with love and faith in her heart, which the religion itself promptly stomped upon. The church should be thankful that they had such a devout (yes, that IS correct and certainly something I learnt prior to my yr 10 conversions. fuck face) follower in Maureen. A woman who deserves and therefore DEMANDS better than you or anyone else within the mormon faith can provide. The faith itself has caused much pain and anguish for Maureen by constantly teaching that she is not as worthy as her male counterparts and I for one believe she has every right to express that pain in this forum. If you don't like it, then kindly step down from whatever horse you rode in on and walk the fuck away.
In response to anonymous comments I would just like to say a word if I may. I have been reading this blog for a few weeks now and I do not feel misled in anyway as to whether Maureen was a devout Mormon or not. Even though I believe she was, that point and the type of clothing she was wearing while she was one, I think is totally irrelevant. Perhaps it is easier to discredit her by saying she wasn’t a ‘proper’ Mormon anyway, ‘right on the edge’ wearing scantily clad tight fitting attire, ‘waiting for an excuse for an out’. Because once she is neatly discredited in her box then we don’t have to pay too much attention to her ranting. Or we don’t have to listen when she challenges us through quotes, anecdotal evidence and insight about the indoctrinated flawed ideals of the Church. And ultimately we don’t have to look at and question our own beliefs. God forbid we give Maureen any credit. Imagine what would happen if we did!
Wow. It’s hard to believe this Anonymous person is real. He/she is just so typical of the judgmental, backbiting Mormon. People like that make those of us who have left the church grateful we are gone. Thank you Anonymous poster!
BTW, I just want to point out that this whole conversation came about because of my friend (who is an active member of the church) asking me about having a threesome. I only put it here because it was so funny that she would think of that. She said that she would totally have a threesome if she wasn’t a member of the church. I feel differently about it, but I don’t judge her, or anyone who would do that. It feels really good to let go of all the judgment and just accept people and love them because they are good people, not because they are members of our ward. This is a good example of why I think the church does more harm than good. That post sums it up perfectly.
I just have to shake my head in disbelief sometimes. When I was a teenager I felt out of place at school because everyone thought I was too straight. I felt left out at church because people thought I wasn't straight enough. In seminary/institute classes I was the nerd again but in the halls I was an 'unwanted rebel' by the standards of the 'popular ruling ysa mormon class'. Ugh!! So to read that anonymous comment with someone actually having the nerve to discredit all of my hard work at church and question my faith and loyalty just pisses me off. If that person was so close to me that they saw me in my swimming attire (seriously DH hardly saw me in bathers!) then they should have known my heart better than that. I can only surmise that anonymous is making things up and as other posters here have taught me, anonymous needed to do that to reassure themselves that they should remain a mormon. sad, sad, sad.
All of you do not make any sense except anonymous. You all must have nothing better to do than write stupid stuff. If you think the Mormons are stupid then go to another church and get your glory there.
I know I have toughened up somewhat. I still want to address the accusations at this point though. Maybe in the future I won't feel the need to. I honestly didn't expect mormons to get mean though. I really wasn't prepared for the members taking my blog so personally but I think I adapted to that pretty fast. I honestly feel pretty calm about it these days.
I feel like I'm going around in circles here sometimes.
As for the most recent of anonymouses - we're talking about our feelings and experiences here bud. I don't see it as time wasting. I really enjoy reading everyones exmormon blogs. I definitely think that it is helpful to talk about things when you have made such a big decision like leaving your religion. As for another religion, no thanks.
By the way, the reference regarding stating things not anonymously, is a little funny given that this site has the option of remarking anonymously.
If I was going to start a hate site I would definitely make sure you had to at least register an e-mail address. You should really focus those remarks to the person that set this site up. Kind of stupid really.
Yes the Rigdon/Spalding theory has been around for quite a while, I thought it had been dispelled by a number of people. I think the witnesses to the plates had every opportunity to renounce their testimony's after leaving the Church etc. but they never did. This really does put the Rigdon theory in poor light. I think Rigdon converted because of the BOM.
How the BOM is structured would be a nightmare for anyone trying to write a fake History, with all the jumping around and compilers commenting etc. I'm not sure if that would be the best way to write a fraud.
In addition to this the real place names used in the BOM, including the Chiasmus that is found throughout the book really baffles me that someone in the early 1800's could have known about those things, or just got it lucky and included them in the story.
Talking about leaving the LDS Church really needs to include some discussion about the Book of Mormon and where this book came from. It isn't something that should be just waved away.
I think it really does provide that purpose, in provides a tangible witness and that needs to be explained somehow.
My exit from the church didn't centre around the BOM but basically I believe that Joseph Smith and others made it up.
As for anonymous statements I am quite happy for people to post anonymously about the content of this blog. (In a previous post we discussed some very good reasons that people remain anonymous). What I have a problem with is when people who know/knew me write anonymously and attack me rather than address the issues on the blog. I get pretty paranoid that mormons I still see may be actually writing here anonymously and not telling me to my face how they feel about me. (Daniel's going to tell me to toughen up again in a minute ;)
I don't consider this to be a hate site. I don't hate mormons. I am pissed off at the liars who started the religion.
People have responded heatedly to you (anonymous) because you are attacking me (and DH) rather than addressing any of the issues on the blog.
I don't know what you're going on about with the "my way or else mentality". If you read posts where Cavalcanti has commented you will see that I encourage openness and a wide range of opinions. Feel free to point out if I ever shut down someone's opinion. I'd appreciate the objectivity.
You've known me for the last 12-15 years? could you just do me one favour then? If you see me in person could you please tell me to my face what you think of me?
Just read you latest comment. I will address the BOM when I'm ready to. As I said I didn't leave because of the BOM. I really don't feel qualified to write about it.
As for expecting a discussion about it here I really don't see why. This blog is mine, for me, very selfishly for me, first and foremost, me, me, me. I have put so many things ahead of me throughout my life, this is one place where I choose to be selfish and explore my deconversion in whatever order and fashion I choose to.
This ties back to your earlier comment about the blog 'degenerating fast'. This blog will go wherever I want it to go. I still like it. It still helps me. Don't waste your time putting your own expectations on it.
Thank you for your comments, I would encourage you to find out a little more about the BOM and where the book came from. I think you may do it in the future...
I don't see the point commenting on this blog as it seems it is for people that have left the Church to try and strengthen each other in their decision.
I hope you may find what you are looking for, good luck.
I think the witnesses to the plates had every opportunity to renounce their testimony's after leaving the Church etc. but they never did.
Some of the witnesses also testified that James Strang's plate were the real deal. Yep, he had his own plates. To my knowledge, they never renounced their testimonies of that either.
Anyway, the witnesses matter very little without evidence for the Book of Mormon's claims. It's like if I tried to give a scientific paper at a conference. They might say, "Can we see your primary data?" They'd just laugh if I said, "No, but there are 11 witnesses who did see my data, and they promise it's true." That wouldn't be good enough.
This discussion probably needs a new thread. It started well, with vodka and threesomes, and then the apologists showed up and now it's dreary old chiasmus, FFS. Who let the Institute teachers in here?
Wow Maureen! I'm sorry that this post has become a battlefield. Remember how it started out as a fun discussion of how to store alcohol in your house? Mmmm, whiskey! LOL.
This anonymous church member is just a real killjoy. Why is it that Mormons always want to wave the Book of Mormon in your face and expect you to reconcile its origin? Why does a person that does not agree with the church have to explain the BoM? Seems like Mormons always expect others to explain the BoM origins if non-believers wish to leave. The Qur'an is considered by many to have a heavenly origin also. Should we try to explain this book, too?
The more that I have researched the Mormon church, (which I am technically still a member of BTW), the more that I am convinced that all religions in general are just damaging to many people's lives.
Maureen, we support you in your efforts to reconcile your own life the way that works best for you.
Anonymous - I welcome anyone to comment on this blog, there was just no point in you commenting on this particular thread since you weren't addressing the thread. What would be really useful is if you could address the thread topics and then we could discuss them with you. Have a go at one of the polygamy ones!
I have only blogged about things as I have been ready to. I have read about the BOM but I don't feel ready to blog about it. This site probably does involve alot of exmormons helping each other out but can you really blame us. If you look at it from our point of view, we've been through a big change and it helps to have support.
I definitely think that the BOM topic needs a new thread. Maybe I will set one up later tonight. I won't have much to add to it myself, but hey, maybe it will be useful to some. You know you could always check out goodreasonblog.blogspot.com for some interesting threads about the BOM.
Thanks Bowie! I guess you never know where the next character assassination is going to come from ;) - You know, you got me thinking about this situation where some mormons want exmormons to explain away the BOM when they leave the church. When people join the church they usually join because they have a 'spiritual witness', they don't learn about chiasmus, place names, cement ;) and reformed Egyptian in order to accept the BOM. On those grounds it really ought to be ok to have a 'spiritual witness' that the book is a fake.
Hey Maureen! Crazy stuff going on here, huh? If you want to start a specific thread discussing the BoM that is your choice (it is your blog after all), but based on the comments on this thread, it’s futile. The BoM questions posed by Cowardly Anonymous were addressed by several people but completely disregarded by Anonymous.
They say there is no explanation for the BoM, but when valid theories are given they just ignore them and continue to assume there is no explanation for it as a way of comforting themselves. I agree with you, if you can have a spiritual witness that the BoM is true then you can have a spiritual witness that it isn’t.
I read the whole book through again last year as a promise to my in-laws. I sincerely prayed to know whether it was true, and I got nothing. As I read it I could see some of the good teachings in it, but I also read things that made me think “what the fuck”? There are some crazy things in the BoM that TBM’s don’t notice because they are so used to only seeing the good and not thinking critically about things related to the church. It was actually very refreshing to read the BoM without first making the assumption that it is true. I was able judge it from the perspective of a non-member and it really isn’t as amazing and wonderful as the church claims it is. Just as Daniel mentioned, “It may be a remarkable book or it may not be. Either way, people do write remarkable books.”
I think what’s really going on here is that some members feel threatened when you lose your belief in something they feel strongly about. This has been mentioned before, but I think that’s what it all comes back to. If they were secure and content in their belief they wouldn’t care whether you believe or not and they wouldn’t feel it necessary to question and insult you. It’s sad really.
So, you discuss whatever you want to on YOUR blog; if it’s the BoM that’s fine. If not, that’s ok too. Don’t let some Cowardly Anonymous person bully you. You don’t have to be bullied and manipulated anymore!(:
Thanks Kaleidoscope Girl. Anonymous seems to have decided that this blog is pointless for him/her so hopefully we can all get back to our irreverent ways now ;)
Bikini guru here. I have studied the BOM. For years I tried to "strengthen" my testimony of the church and then was referred to the FARMS website to answer my question. And answer them it did! Lots of apologies and excuses is what I found. The BOM falls down dramatically at a number of junctures, and pivotal points where the archaeological records do not support the story. Some places could not have accomodated the number of people asserted to have been there ie Hill Cumorah. Research some historic battles from recent (last 2 centuries) history, and compare land sizes to number of person fighting, and you'll see what I mean. I served faithfully for years. Callings, temple, FHE, scripture study, teaching kids to pray and learn their ARticles of Faith, pay their tithing, keeping journals for the whole family - pretty much everything. I researched to get answers and to put my concerns to rest. I even spoke to Daniel Ludlow and asked him about plural marriage and other issues. There is really nothing I didn't try. Didn't help. And accepting that the church is NOT true is one of the most difficult things I have ever had to do. At the same time, I have never had the peace in my life that I do now. No more "the church must be true so why am I acting out disembowelling myself on my wedding day?" or "we are a family church but my husband might take on more wives at some point in the hereafter", etc, etc. Now I just have peace. No questions, doubts, confusion. Peace. Something that I could only get from the church if I tried really hard to ignore all the discrepancies and bigotry. The other anonymous might want to try it. ;0)
I know I'm way late to this party... Although I have been watching this thread since it came out... I even had a mildy humorous comment too, but the timing may have passed.
Anyway, so as I'm mowing the lawn yesterday, something struck me.
Anonymous - the nasty little cowardly one who commented first - has sought to destroy Maureen's character and thus make her comments and opinions irrelevant as a result. The funny thing is that most of Maureen's past comments and concerns have to do with the character of Joseph Smith and how they relate to his message, but those character flaws seem to be irrelevant to people like anonymous.
And then I got to thinking about this exercise those of us who have left are engaged in, specifically sharing what we have found out about the Church with those who read our blogs. It seems to me that the faithful have no problem sharing the gospel as it were, with all around them, regardless of whether they want to have it share with them. Is it not the same for those of us who have left? We've found important truths which we feel are relevant to the happiness of those around us, and so feel a compulsion and responsibility to share what we have found.
Interestingly enough, my DW remarked that for the first time in her life, she feels like shouting about what she has found from the rooftops, and I would agree... The funny part of that is, that both of us served our time as missionaries, and both struggled with sharing this message during our time, out in the field.
Well this comment is way late, but speaking as a " retired" mormon and one who served a mission at that, we were always taught that we didn't have to prove anything, ie. don't get into heated bible bashing arguments to prove the truth, but that you can't argue with someone's feelings/testimony and that when things go to (shit) then just bear your testimony. Well I don't have any evidence that the church isn't true. I JUST KNOW !!! without a shadow of a doubt. HAHAHAHAHAHAH I feel it in my heart and there is nothing I can do about it. So cheers to feelings !!x
Man you managed to hide your comment deep in probably the longest comment section I have! Great to 'see' you here.
Once T talked me through the whole "our minds make up the feeling" bizzo it took me a while to get my head around it. I recently realised that I had ditched prayer but also hadn't been 'self-talking' anymore. I think I just shut all that off once I lost my belief. Now I have been purposely chatting to myself (in my head and when no-one is around!) to pump myself up.
That is funny. We ran into the same issue a while back. We decide to put all of our bottles on top of the fridge instead of in the freezer. Now we have our own mini-bar up there. Have you ever noticed how cool and artistic bottles of alcohol are? I have a bottle of Jack Daniels Single Barrel that is beautiful.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that's a dilemma. I think that's heaven.
ReplyDeletewoops...signed in as Maureen...I'm sure she agrees though...it's heaven yes
ReplyDeleteAah, the plight of the suburban house-spouse.
ReplyDeleteWhy are you freezing your vodka? Sorry, I never learned these things.
Well the dilemma part comes in if I choose freezer space for my vodka rather than to preserve food items for my children. Sure I can live on beer and nuts but those little munchkins need a few more nutrients.
ReplyDeleteTime for another freezer!
Hey there Bowie! we've been collecting our funky bottles, delabelling them and using them as candle holders. Do you freeze all your spirits (I was picturing a mini freezer on top of the existing one) or do you mean that they're all now out of the freezer?
Daniel my dear teetotaler, I am not as sophisticated as I made out earlier. Toby educated me on the vodkas preference for arctic climates. It seems to taste less harsh to me when it is freezy but I have not researched the real reason.
Aha! just found this great pearl -
"The only reason to freeze anything is to reduce the amount of ice you use. Vodka, and most alcohols for that matter, are very stable and you are more likely to screw up the flavor by putting it in the freezer than keeping it out. If you have your vodka around long enough to worry about it degrading you aren't drinking it fast enough :-) " ( Some blogger, Somewhere).
Ok, so the food wins then. Vodka - off to the shelf with you!
Yeah, we just had to accept not freezing our alcohols. We just set them on top of the fridge at regular room temperature. Every bar that I have been to seems to do the same, their bottles just sit on the shelf. We have started collecting the bottles that we are fond of and display them on top of our kitchen cabinets. Isn't talking and learning about alcohol fun?
ReplyDeleteToby seems to enjoy the ins and outs of alcohol a little more than me although I do get a kick out of buying alcohol with no guilty feelings. Cocktails grab my attention.
ReplyDeleteI think I prefer the fun I am having with cursing. I said "god your brave" to someone today and it felt natural and great!
I want to go to the casino soon!
what else is there? I need a book of 'thou shalt nots' to refer to.
"Thou shald nots" that makes me laugh! I totally know what you mean though.
ReplyDeleteI had a friend who, when I told her I was leaving the church, asked me if I tried alcohol and coffee. I said yes, then she asked me, in all seriousness "have you had a threesome yet"? I chuckled because that hadn't even crossed my mind. So there you go, you could have a threesome:)
I love how the next thing after alcohol and coffee is a threesome! Mormons must be even more sexually repressed than I first thought. It's like because there are so many sexual things that are considered sins that sex is probably on the mind more than ever.
ReplyDeleteSo the candidates for the threesome (lets make it a foursome just to be fair ;) are: Johnny Depp, Scarlett Johansen, Leonardo DiCaprio and Penelope Cruz. You guys are in no problem, if your name is something else then there are strict requirements e.g. you must look like one of the four mentioned!!
we should have a girls night out at the casino.
ReplyDeleteI'll show you the ropes :) Also, I must say that the leap from drinking coffee to threesomes was a rather large one. It definitely made me giggle...
This blog is really degenerating fast, but a little compelling, kind of like watching a train wreck.
ReplyDeleteHalf of the comments reminds me of conversions I had in the 10th grade.
I also love how you consider yourself being such a devote follower of the LDS doctrine. I have known you for a long time and I would never have described you or DH as being devote members. You have always been right on the edge if not over on sticking to the teachings of the Church.
So you are misleading everyone here that reads this site on stating that you practiced the religion fully then decided to leave. I would propose that you were just waiting for an opportunity to make an excuse to leave.
Also the black bikini reference is a little confusing, I have seen you many times in little bikini's, not sure where you are getting all the frumpy clothing examples from. You have always dressed in tight small clothes.
Anyway thought I would just try to clear a few things up. Good luck with everything.
Do you feel the love people!!!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous:
I would really like to know how you have come to such conclusions. In particular which teaching/s was I not following? I had a temple recommend right up till the end, I was very active in my church callings, just what exactly are you basing your judgements on?
Your proposal that I was just waiting for an excuse to leave is extremely insulting. You need to re-read the posts on here where I describe the absolute agony I felt when I thought that god did not love me as much as my husband. Then the pain that I have felt in losing god. Then the year+ that I spent trying to find reasons to stay.
When the flip have you seen me wearing a bikini? the top, maybe, maybe (even then a rather conservative one) but I always wore board shorts while I was a member. Little Bikinis - fuck off - I've never owned one.
Small, tight clothes? who the hell are you? I'm beginning to feel creeped out. I look in my wardrobe and see frumpy boring clothing all round. (ps you might want to take a look at the fattys at church with their skin tight clothing, they'd deck you if you said their clothing was innapropriate)
You've made things as clear as mud. Be a man/woman and say these things unanonymously!
I've just had an interesting exchange with a family member over the weekend. He tried the same tactic as Anonymous Coward here: if you leave the Church, it's because you were never really committed in the first place.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, the word is 'devout', dumbass.
I've sometimes wondered why they need to believe this about us. If we change our minds, isn't it enough for them to say we're wrong? Why the character assassination on the way out?
I think the answer is part social control, and part anxiety management.
The 'social control' part is an attempt to discourage other members of the group to leave. By slandering the ex-member, they instill fear in weaker members -- 'this is what we'll say about you if you leave'. Part re-affirming the group's values, part savaging by proxy. It's very subtle and very effective.
The 'anxiety management' part is their own attempt to convince themselves that they would never leave the belief system. Anonymous needs to think we were never believers in order to convince herself that she's safe from becoming like us.
Tell you what, Anonymous. Stay in church. As more and more people wake up, realise that the LDS Church teaches false things and makes empty promises of a fictional hereafter, and as they leave for lives of fulfillment, you can sit in your emptying chapel and congratulate yourself on how you were the only one that 'truly' believed. Won't that be fun?
Anonymous Coward, go sensually please yourself, you might be able to release some of that pent up tension and anxiety; you might also be able to take that massive stick from your colon while you're at it, trust me, you'll feel better.
ReplyDeleteMaureen's stuck up for herself and the only thing she omitted from her examples of being a good member was the full tithe we payed into the coffers of the church.
As far as I am concerned, yeah for a long while I doubted and disagreed and struggled with the church, and then towards the end I was absolutely looking for a way out (thankfully Maureen took an interest in women's lib. and that led to our blessed departure as a family; beware TBM's the horrors and evils of progressive thought and ideals based on freedom and equity!). And yet I still held callings and did my best in them, for a while I was on the EQP, teaching sunday school to the 14-16 's and the Ward Clerk at the same time. And you question my devotion? FUCK YOU. I had finally had enough and stopped going, Maureen was out as well and we've never felt better.
And if we are living a Train Wreck it's better than living in the squalid gutter-filth of the LDS religion; any religion.
I just realised that I had Anonymous Coward figured as a female, but maybe she's a guy.
ReplyDeleteIf so, he'd make an excellent church leader. He clearly has a great deal of experience presuming to stand in judgment of other people's moral choices.
I would just to add a nice fat FUCK OFF to mr/mrs anonymous, cowardly, severely mislead and atrociously misinformed asshole. My sister followed the LDS church with love and faith in her heart, which the religion itself promptly stomped upon. The church should be thankful that they had such a devout (yes, that IS correct and certainly something I learnt prior to my yr 10 conversions. fuck face) follower in Maureen. A woman who deserves and therefore DEMANDS better than you or anyone else within the mormon faith can provide. The faith itself has caused much pain and anguish for Maureen by constantly teaching that she is not as worthy as her male counterparts and I for one believe she has every right to express that pain in this forum. If you don't like it, then kindly step down from whatever horse you rode in on and walk the fuck away.
ReplyDeleteIn response to anonymous comments I would just like to say a word if I may. I have been reading this blog for a few weeks now and I do not feel misled in anyway as to whether Maureen was a devout Mormon or not. Even though I believe she was, that point and the type of clothing she was wearing while she was one, I think is totally irrelevant. Perhaps it is easier to discredit her by saying she wasn’t a ‘proper’ Mormon anyway, ‘right on the edge’ wearing scantily clad tight fitting attire, ‘waiting for an excuse for an out’. Because once she is neatly discredited in her box then we don’t have to pay too much attention to her ranting. Or we don’t have to listen when she challenges us through quotes, anecdotal evidence and insight about the indoctrinated flawed ideals of the Church. And ultimately we don’t have to look at and question our own beliefs. God forbid we give Maureen any credit. Imagine what would happen if we did!
ReplyDeleteWow. It’s hard to believe this Anonymous person is real. He/she is just so typical of the judgmental, backbiting Mormon. People like that make those of us who have left the church grateful we are gone. Thank you Anonymous poster!
ReplyDeleteBTW, I just want to point out that this whole conversation came about because of my friend (who is an active member of the church) asking me about having a threesome. I only put it here because it was so funny that she would think of that. She said that she would totally have a threesome if she wasn’t a member of the church. I feel differently about it, but I don’t judge her, or anyone who would do that. It feels really good to let go of all the judgment and just accept people and love them because they are good people, not because they are members of our ward. This is a good example of why I think the church does more harm than good. That post sums it up perfectly.
Oh, and thank you, new Anonymous. That was well-reasoned.
ReplyDeleteThanks everyone - Daniel, mack, Liana, Kaleidoscope girl and 'new anonymous'.
ReplyDeleteI just have to shake my head in disbelief sometimes. When I was a teenager I felt out of place at school because everyone thought I was too straight. I felt left out at church because people thought I wasn't straight enough. In seminary/institute classes I was the nerd again but in the halls I was an 'unwanted rebel' by the standards of the 'popular ruling ysa mormon class'. Ugh!! So to read that anonymous comment with someone actually having the nerve to discredit all of my hard work at church and question my faith and loyalty just pisses me off. If that person was so close to me that they saw me in my swimming attire (seriously DH hardly saw me in bathers!) then they should have known my heart better than that. I can only surmise that anonymous is making things up and as other posters here have taught me, anonymous needed to do that to reassure themselves that they should remain a mormon. sad, sad, sad.
Toughen up, buttercup. This is what we signed on for. We knew they weren't gonna be happy when we went public with our disbelief.
ReplyDeleteOn the plus side, this is the best they've got. And I will wear it like a two-thousand-dollar Armani.
All of you do not make any sense except anonymous. You all must have nothing better to do than write stupid stuff. If you think the Mormons are stupid then go to another church and get your glory there.
ReplyDeleteayeyaeyaeyae!
ReplyDeleteI know I have toughened up somewhat. I still want to address the accusations at this point though. Maybe in the future I won't feel the need to. I honestly didn't expect mormons to get mean though. I really wasn't prepared for the members taking my blog so personally but I think I adapted to that pretty fast. I honestly feel pretty calm about it these days.
I feel like I'm going around in circles here sometimes.
As for the most recent of anonymouses - we're talking about our feelings and experiences here bud. I don't see it as time wasting. I really enjoy reading everyones exmormon blogs. I definitely think that it is helpful to talk about things when you have made such a big decision like leaving your religion. As for another religion, no thanks.
I would like to know if you have an explanation for the Book of Mormon?
ReplyDeleteInteresting to find out what your thoughts are on the Book that is described as the corner stone of the LDS faith.
No matter what your beliefs are it is quite a remarkable book considering where it came from.
By the way, the reference regarding stating things not anonymously, is a little funny given that this site has the option of remarking anonymously.
ReplyDeleteIf I was going to start a hate site I would definitely make sure you had to at least register an e-mail address. You should really focus those remarks to the person that set this site up. Kind of stupid really.
Also, I love when someone else has an apposing opinion, people get quite aggressive and hostile.
ReplyDeleteIt dosent really harbour any meaningful discussion, its basically "my way or else" mentality.
I'm sorry if you have taken offence to any remarks on here, but it is definitely what I have observed over the past 12 - 15 years.
Anyway I'll let everyone get back to the fun, I'm interested in the other comment regarding the BOM though, should be good to hear the response.
The Book of Mormon? I think someone sat down and wrote it. The findings of Jockers et al. (2008) are consistent with the Rigdon/Spalding hypothesis, with a bit of Cowdery thrown in.
ReplyDeleteIt may be a remarkable book or it may not be. Either way, people do write remarkable books.
Yes the Rigdon/Spalding theory has been around for quite a while, I thought it had been dispelled by a number of people. I think the witnesses to the plates had every opportunity to renounce their testimony's after leaving the Church etc. but they never did. This really does put the Rigdon theory in poor light. I think Rigdon converted because of the BOM.
ReplyDeleteHow the BOM is structured would be a nightmare for anyone trying to write a fake History, with all the jumping around and compilers commenting etc. I'm not sure if that would be the best way to write a fraud.
In addition to this the real place names used in the BOM, including the Chiasmus that is found throughout the book really baffles me that someone in the early 1800's could have known about those things, or just got it lucky and included them in the story.
Talking about leaving the LDS Church really needs to include some discussion about the Book of Mormon and where this book came from. It isn't something that should be just waved away.
I think it really does provide that purpose, in provides a tangible witness and that needs to be explained somehow.
My exit from the church didn't centre around the BOM but basically I believe that Joseph Smith and others made it up.
ReplyDeleteAs for anonymous statements I am quite happy for people to post anonymously about the content of this blog. (In a previous post we discussed some very good reasons that people remain anonymous). What I have a problem with is when people who know/knew me write anonymously and attack me rather than address the issues on the blog. I get pretty paranoid that mormons I still see may be actually writing here anonymously and not telling me to my face how they feel about me. (Daniel's going to tell me to toughen up again in a minute ;)
I don't consider this to be a hate site. I don't hate mormons. I am pissed off at the liars who started the religion.
People have responded heatedly to you (anonymous) because you are attacking me (and DH) rather than addressing any of the issues on the blog.
I don't know what you're going on about with the "my way or else mentality". If you read posts where Cavalcanti has commented you will see that I encourage openness and a wide range of opinions. Feel free to point out if I ever shut down someone's opinion. I'd appreciate the objectivity.
You've known me for the last 12-15 years? could you just do me one favour then? If you see me in person could you please tell me to my face what you think of me?
Just read you latest comment. I will address the BOM when I'm ready to. As I said I didn't leave because of the BOM. I really don't feel qualified to write about it.
ReplyDeleteAs for expecting a discussion about it here I really don't see why. This blog is mine, for me, very selfishly for me, first and foremost, me, me, me. I have put so many things ahead of me throughout my life, this is one place where I choose to be selfish and explore my deconversion in whatever order and fashion I choose to.
This ties back to your earlier comment about the blog 'degenerating fast'. This blog will go wherever I want it to go. I still like it. It still helps me. Don't waste your time putting your own expectations on it.
Thank you for your comments, I would encourage you to find out a little more about the BOM and where the book came from. I think you may do it in the future...
ReplyDeleteI don't see the point commenting on this blog as it seems it is for people that have left the Church to try and strengthen each other in their decision.
I hope you may find what you are looking for, good luck.
I think the witnesses to the plates had every opportunity to renounce their testimony's after leaving the Church etc. but they never did.
ReplyDeleteSome of the witnesses also testified that James Strang's plate were the real deal. Yep, he had his own plates. To my knowledge, they never renounced their testimonies of that either.
Anyway, the witnesses matter very little without evidence for the Book of Mormon's claims. It's like if I tried to give a scientific paper at a conference. They might say, "Can we see your primary data?" They'd just laugh if I said, "No, but there are 11 witnesses who did see my data, and they promise it's true." That wouldn't be good enough.
This discussion probably needs a new thread. It started well, with vodka and threesomes, and then the apologists showed up and now it's dreary old chiasmus, FFS. Who let the Institute teachers in here?
Wow Maureen! I'm sorry that this post has become a battlefield. Remember how it started out as a fun discussion of how to store alcohol in your house? Mmmm, whiskey! LOL.
ReplyDeleteThis anonymous church member is just a real killjoy. Why is it that Mormons always want to wave the Book of Mormon in your face and expect you to reconcile its origin? Why does a person that does not agree with the church have to explain the BoM? Seems like Mormons always expect others to explain the BoM origins if non-believers wish to leave. The Qur'an is considered by many to have a heavenly origin also. Should we try to explain this book, too?
The more that I have researched the Mormon church, (which I am technically still a member of BTW), the more that I am convinced that all religions in general are just damaging to many people's lives.
Maureen, we support you in your efforts to reconcile your own life the way that works best for you.
Anonymous - I welcome anyone to comment on this blog, there was just no point in you commenting on this particular thread since you weren't addressing the thread. What would be really useful is if you could address the thread topics and then we could discuss them with you. Have a go at one of the polygamy ones!
ReplyDeleteI have only blogged about things as I have been ready to. I have read about the BOM but I don't feel ready to blog about it. This site probably does involve alot of exmormons helping each other out but can you really blame us. If you look at it from our point of view, we've been through a big change and it helps to have support.
I definitely think that the BOM topic needs a new thread. Maybe I will set one up later tonight. I won't have much to add to it myself, but hey, maybe it will be useful to some. You know you could always check out goodreasonblog.blogspot.com for some interesting threads about the BOM.
Thanks Bowie! I guess you never know where the next character assassination is going to come from ;) - You know, you got me thinking about this situation where some mormons want exmormons to explain away the BOM when they leave the church. When people join the church they usually join because they have a 'spiritual witness', they don't learn about chiasmus, place names, cement ;) and reformed Egyptian in order to accept the BOM. On those grounds it really ought to be ok to have a 'spiritual witness' that the book is a fake.
Hey Maureen! Crazy stuff going on here, huh? If you want to start a specific thread discussing the BoM that is your choice (it is your blog after all), but based on the comments on this thread, it’s futile. The BoM questions posed by Cowardly Anonymous were addressed by several people but completely disregarded by Anonymous.
ReplyDeleteThey say there is no explanation for the BoM, but when valid theories are given they just ignore them and continue to assume there is no explanation for it as a way of comforting themselves. I agree with you, if you can have a spiritual witness that the BoM is true then you can have a spiritual witness that it isn’t.
I read the whole book through again last year as a promise to my in-laws. I sincerely prayed to know whether it was true, and I got nothing. As I read it I could see some of the good teachings in it, but I also read things that made me think “what the fuck”? There are some crazy things in the BoM that TBM’s don’t notice because they are so used to only seeing the good and not thinking critically about things related to the church. It was actually very refreshing to read the BoM without first making the assumption that it is true. I was able judge it from the perspective of a non-member and it really isn’t as amazing and wonderful as the church claims it is. Just as Daniel mentioned, “It may be a remarkable book or it may not be. Either way, people do write remarkable books.”
I think what’s really going on here is that some members feel threatened when you lose your belief in something they feel strongly about. This has been mentioned before, but I think that’s what it all comes back to. If they were secure and content in their belief they wouldn’t care whether you believe or not and they wouldn’t feel it necessary to question and insult you. It’s sad really.
So, you discuss whatever you want to on YOUR blog; if it’s the BoM that’s fine. If not, that’s ok too. Don’t let some Cowardly Anonymous person bully you. You don’t have to be bullied and manipulated anymore!(:
Thanks Kaleidoscope Girl. Anonymous seems to have decided that this blog is pointless for him/her so hopefully we can all get back to our irreverent ways now ;)
ReplyDeleteBikini guru here.
ReplyDeleteI have studied the BOM. For years I tried to "strengthen" my testimony of the church and then was referred to the FARMS website to answer my question.
And answer them it did!
Lots of apologies and excuses is what I found.
The BOM falls down dramatically at a number of junctures, and pivotal points where the archaeological records do not support the story. Some places could not have accomodated the number of people asserted to have been there ie Hill Cumorah. Research some historic battles from recent (last 2 centuries) history, and compare land sizes to number of person fighting, and you'll see what I mean.
I served faithfully for years.
Callings, temple, FHE, scripture study, teaching kids to pray and learn their ARticles of Faith, pay their tithing, keeping journals for the whole family - pretty much everything.
I researched to get answers and to put my concerns to rest.
I even spoke to Daniel Ludlow and asked him about plural marriage and other issues.
There is really nothing I didn't try.
Didn't help.
And accepting that the church is NOT true is one of the most difficult things I have ever had to do.
At the same time, I have never had the peace in my life that I do now. No more "the church must be true so why am I acting out disembowelling myself on my wedding day?" or "we are a family church but my husband might take on more wives at some point in the hereafter", etc, etc. Now I just have peace. No questions, doubts, confusion.
Peace.
Something that I could only get from the church if I tried really hard to ignore all the discrepancies and bigotry.
The other anonymous might want to try it. ;0)
I know I'm way late to this party... Although I have been watching this thread since it came out... I even had a mildy humorous comment too, but the timing may have passed.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, so as I'm mowing the lawn yesterday, something struck me.
Anonymous - the nasty little cowardly one who commented first - has sought to destroy Maureen's character and thus make her comments and opinions irrelevant as a result. The funny thing is that most of Maureen's past comments and concerns have to do with the character of Joseph Smith and how they relate to his message, but those character flaws seem to be irrelevant to people like anonymous.
And then I got to thinking about this exercise those of us who have left are engaged in, specifically sharing what we have found out about the Church with those who read our blogs. It seems to me that the faithful have no problem sharing the gospel as it were, with all around them, regardless of whether they want to have it share with them. Is it not the same for those of us who have left? We've found important truths which we feel are relevant to the happiness of those around us, and so feel a compulsion and responsibility to share what we have found.
Interestingly enough, my DW remarked that for the first time in her life, she feels like shouting about what she has found from the rooftops, and I would agree... The funny part of that is, that both of us served our time as missionaries, and both struggled with sharing this message during our time, out in the field.
Well this comment is way late, but speaking as a " retired" mormon and one who served a mission at that, we were always taught that we didn't have to prove anything, ie. don't get into heated bible bashing arguments to prove the truth, but that you can't argue with someone's feelings/testimony and that when things go to (shit) then just bear your testimony. Well I don't have any evidence that the church isn't true. I JUST KNOW !!! without a shadow of a doubt. HAHAHAHAHAHAH I feel it in my heart and there is nothing I can do about it. So cheers to feelings !!x
ReplyDeleteMan you managed to hide your comment deep in probably the longest comment section I have! Great to 'see' you here.
ReplyDeleteOnce T talked me through the whole "our minds make up the feeling" bizzo it took me a while to get my head around it. I recently realised that I had ditched prayer but also hadn't been 'self-talking' anymore. I think I just shut all that off once I lost my belief. Now I have been purposely chatting to myself (in my head and when no-one is around!) to pump myself up.