Saturday, September 10, 2011

Down the Rabbit Hole

You know that post last night about trolling on Mormon facebook pages? This morning I woke up to find a string of comments from one of those pages which appears to be a substantial effort to try and (re)convert me.

It began about 3 weeks ago and I thought we were done but apparently WE are not done.  At first my evangelist berated me for having a negative view of the BOM. Then we had a misunderstanding where I thought they were comparing homosexuals to pedophiles. They said "And I ask you, "Do you love everyone the way they are? Even the rapists and pedophiles; serial killers and wife beaters? Because you just said that they were born that way."You see why I was alarmed right? The phrase of mine that triggered this statement was that I had said that any god I could believe in would love everyone as they are. What my evangelist keeps failing to understand is how incredibly insulting and tiring it is to hear homosexuals lumped in with pedophiles and rapists! Why do people immediately feel the need to go there? what is the link? The link in their head is SIN, they lump all of these things together as sins and completely fail to realise that they are being unbelievably cruel and bigoted  in their approach. Not to mention that they are just plain wrong! There is no sin in LOVE. The LGBTQI community teaches me daily about love.   

After clarifying that my 'born that way' statement was in relation to the LGBTQI community (doesn't anyone listen to Gaga anymore!) my evangelist went on to repeat themselves. "So, I'll rephrase. "Do you love everyone the way they are? Heterosexual or Homosexual? Rapist or not? Pedophile or not? Tax cheaters or not? Liars or not? Thieves or not? Animal abusers or not? Drug abusers or not?" It would appear that you think He should love EVERY PERSON as they are because they are born that way." Gah!  There are only 2 behaviours in there that don't harm another person and they are homosexuality and drug abuse. The rest impact upon others ranging from mild to severe in impact. You could argue that drug abusers hurt those close to them too BUT who are homosexual people hurting? the insecure and sexually repressed religious knobs? is that who? pfffft! give it a rest!

We then got into why I lost my belief in god. Which goes something like this:
"I was born into the church. I have read the BOM many times and the Bible, PoGP, D&C, 4 years seminary, 4+ years Institute, Gospel Essentials teacher, Young Womens Counsellor, Relief Society Counsellor. Then at age 31 I was reading Jacob2 (again) and this time didn't gloss over the mention of polygamy, referrenced it to D&C 132 and read it with a desire to understand. The ultimatum to Emma - 'accept polygamy or be destroyed' I "likened unto myself" and found no love from god. I realised I was a piece of property to him and worth less than my husband. I still believed in the church at this point and so I felt spriritually devastated by this new awareness of my place in gods plan. I spent the next year trying to find explanations that would show me I was wrong. Instead I found more and more damning evidence that the church is a fraud concocted by Joseph Smith etc. I have made my peace with Joseph. I love my Mormon friends but I 
despise Mormonism."

My evangelist friend then goes on to tell me about a bunch of women in the scriptures. Eve. Mary. Evangelist even quotes from the BOM "The Lamanite king Lamoni also bore testimony that his Redeemer was to be “born of a woman.”"Is that supposed to make me feel better?!!! that a woman was mentioned in scriptures as a baby maker! "Sarah, wife of Abraham, is mentioned only in passing as “she that bare you.” I think evangelist has forgotten whose point they are trying to prove! "Sariah, was the helpmate of the visionary Lehi and mother of the eight or so sons and daughters" Fuck me! helpmate (helpmeet?) and mother of 8, NO thanks! "
The unnamed wife of Nephi" Nameless, faceless, hopeless! To be fair, unnamed wife of Nephi did a pretty cool thing - "However, she does present a good example of a distraught woman turning to prayer when her husband’s life was endangered (as I'm sure a man would do if his wife was in danger). “With her tears and prayers” and in spite of threatenings, she tried to persuade the rebellious brethren to release her bound husband. (See 1 Ne. 18:19.) " Evangelist then makes mention of a maidservant who was beaten and then fled to the other side (the righteous side) and gave the baddies away. Evangelist sums it up with mention of the groups of  women mentioned in the BOM - sisters of Nephi, daughters of Ishmael, Lamanite daughters. 

Then this comment - "I guess you've forgotten that there are women in the Book of Mormon; good and bad, just like the men." No, but thanks for proving my point; that all of the heroes in the BOM are men. The women exist and are mentioned as some appendage to a man or men. As I've said before - Blech! 

Perhaps most insulting of all was the response to my earnest account of my feelings of pain etc upon discovering that Emma (and I) would be destroyed by god if we would not accept polygamy. Evangelist's response was to say that Joseph himself was threatened with destruction from god if he showed the golden plates to anyone (conveniently fixing the problem of people asking for proof of the plates) and again with destruction if HE would not institute polygamy. God! what a trial! having sex with pretty young (already married) women. Gag me with a mother-fucking spoon! 


  1. I probably would disagree on the drug addict part, but the rest of it is spot on. You should send your evangelist a link to this blog. ;)

  2. My argument to religious people who are anti anything other than heterosexuality is how do they reconcile their version of god, with a child who is born with XY chromosomes (male) but has a uterus (female) and one small gonad (a gonad is a testicle in males, an ovary in females) that is in the position and appears as an ovary, and one that appears like an undescended testicle, with ambiguous genitalia (appearance of a small but empty scrotum with a division down the middle making it look a bit like labia, and something that is a cross between a very enlarged clitoris and a very small penis)? How would they classify this baby? Male because of the XY chromosome, undescended teste, malformed scrotum and undersized penis? Or female because of the uterus, ovary, malformed labia and oversized clitoris?
    And then, who would this person say this child was "allowed" to have sex with when they grew up?
    If your version of "god" can allow this sort of thing to happen (and he/she/it does all the time), then how can you believe that things are so neatly divided into two sexes with them only allowed to be attracted to the opposite sex? Intersex is a massive problem for so many people who feel incredibly marginalised. What of the "females" who appear to be 100% female until they fail to start to menstruate, and it is then discovered their chromosomes are XY, they have a "blind" vagina (meaning it doesn't end with a cervix and uterus), and undescended testes? These are technically males who either were not exposed to testosterone in utero, or whose receptors failed to respond to the testosterone and therefore present as the biological default gender - female. So they are actually, technically male...except for the lack of testosterone. The main way in which they differ from someone born male who has had gender reassignment surgery is that one of them had nature do it to them before birth, and the other had a surgeon do it to them after birth.
    It is not as simplistic as some people like to make out. Some people will go through life blissfully unaware that there is anything outside their understanding of Male = penis, Female = vagina. But in this day and age of information being readily available, it is the responsibility of everyone who claims the right to having a strong opinion that they educate themselves.
    I am grateful that I have a female brain, with a female brain that is attracted to males. But I recognise that others are not so lucky, and I have compassion for them.
    Isn't that what most religions teach?

  3. And that should read "a female body, with a female brain that is attracted to males." I don't actually have two brains and no body....although sometimes I think it would be useful if I did! ;0)

  4. I've sent them a link Kath, thanks to your suggestion. Let the fun begin (again) ;)

    I LOVE this Carolyn - "in this day and age of information being readily available, it is the responsibility of everyone who claims the right to having a strong opinion that they educate themselves."

    Again and again we see religious 'pacifists' sticking their heads in the sand and saying "we love everyone, don't insult and offend us, we are peaceful" .... if peaceful means wilfully ignorant then I'd agree BUT as you say, the info is out there, so anyone with a strong opinion, especially like the Mormon one of gay people = sinners, then they CANNOT just say they believe this bcos the prophet says so! That kind of stupidity should be ridiculed and called out!

  5. I just love this post so much. I feel very strongly about drug addiction, but not for/against, rather that the majority of addicts are genuinely at the intersection of shitty circumstances and the opportunity to abuse drugs to (mentally, in most cases, and financially for those few who take up dealing). In the majority of cases harm could be interpreted as any damage they may inflict on others through their own use, or in the few cases of those who turn to stealing or dealing to fund their addiction, the harm that those activities inflict.
    In which case, given the history required to produce an addict, surely any loving god would beseech us to extend help in a spirit of compassion and feel love for their creations given that they put those persons into a life in which they would face the circumstances leading to addiction.

    As for the argument around love being sin or not, this is the profoundest thought I've heard expressed in recent times:
    "Some people say homosexuality is a sin. It’s not. God is perfectly cool with it. God feels the exact same way about homosexuality that God feels about heterosexuality. Now you might say, ‘Whoa, slow down. You move too fast. How could you have the audacity, the temerity, to speak on behalf of God?’ Exactly, that’s an excellent point and I pray that you remember it."
    — Ted Alexandro

  6. Thanks Dan :) That is a great quote from Alexandro there. I will be re-using it.